Selamat Datang Ke Blog Adil,Semoga pengunjung ke blog ini baik-baik belaka dan tidak menimbulkan keadaan yang kurang elok. Sila bersopan menyaksikan keadaan harian yang berlaku di sekeliling kita, khususnya dengan pembangunan Negeri sarawak.
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Selamat Datang Ke Blog Adil, Semoga pengunjung ke blog ini baik-baik belaka dan tidak menimbulkan keadaan yang kurang elok. Sila bersopan menyaksikan keadaan harian yang berlaku di sekeliling kita, khususnya dengan pembangunan Negeri sarawak. |
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(Mesyuarat dimulakan pada jam 10:35 pagi) [Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan Mesyuarat] PEMASYHURAN DARIPADA TUAN SPEAKER Tuan Speaker: Honourable Members, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate you for your election by the people to represent them in this Honourable august House. Your election has certainly brought you into an atmosphere where you are expected to perform vital roles towards the fulfillment of the trust given by the people. Hence, as elected representatives of the people, you are aware of the needs and aspiration of those whom you represent. Honourable Members, on seating arrangement of Members. Under Standing Order 2 of the Dewan’s Standing Orders, it reads as follows: “On the first day of the meeting of the Dewan after a general election or prorogation and thereafter, members shall be seated in accordance with such arrangements as may be determined by the Speaker whose decision thereon shall be final.” The Chair had already determined the seating arrangements for all Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat in this august House. The seating plan has been issued by the Dewan secretariat under the direction of the Chair. All Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat are now seated in accordance with the arrangement determined by the Chair and that decision is final. It is noted from press statements that some quarters of the opposition are not satisfied with the seating arrangements. A letter had been received from someone whom the Chair considers to be a stranger, that is not a member of this august House, calling for certain members of the opposition who belong to the Democratic Action Party to be seated together in accordance with “parliamentary convention and precedence practised by all commonwealth countries”. In the Dewan Undangan Negeri Sarawak, Government Ministers and Assistant Ministers are seated together so that they have the assistance of the government officials during the sitting. These officials are seated behind the government benchers. The Constitution and Standing Orders recognized the constitutional position of the government comprising ministers and assistant ministers. Unlike in the United Kingdom where the opposition is an alternative government, the opposition parties in Sarawak do not have the status as an alternative government. Neither the Standing Orders nor the State Constitution nor the DUN (Privileges, Immunities and Powers) Ordinance recognizes the position of the opposition as an alternative government. Therefore, opposition members must be considered a group in determining their seating arrangements in the same way as government backbenchers. Like government backbenchers who belong to different component parties are not seated together in this Dewan on the basis that they are from one component party or another in the government, the opposition should not be seated on the basis that some of the members belong to one political party within the opposition. The chair has to take cognizance of the seniority of some of members over their junior counterparts. Such seniority is reflected in the seating arrangement. The Honourable Member for Ngemah has been a Member of this Honourable House for four terms, making it nearly towards a total of 20 years while those with the exception of Honourable Member for Kidurong and Honourable Member for Bukit Assek are just at the beginning of their first term. On dress and ceremonial uniform. Standing Order 37(a) provides that all members shall enter, leave and behave in the Dewan with decorum. Standing Order 89 provides that all matters not specifically provided for in the Standing Orders shall be regulated in such a manner not inconsistent with Standing Orders as the Speaker may from time to time direct. To maintain proper decorum and to preserve the dignity and respect of all members of this House on all ceremonial occasions such as the opening of the first sitting of the Dewan in each session by Tuan Yang Terutama Yang di-Pertua Negeri, all Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat are required to wear ceremonial uniforms. The design and features of the uniform are ceremonial and traditional. What comprises has been known to all Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat. When the ceremonial uniform is worn, it must be used in full including the hat. To maintain decorum, dignity and respect for the ceremonial uniform, I consider it necessary for the Chair to make a ruling that when wearing the official ceremonial uniform, all Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat must wear the full uniform. This ruling takes effect from today. Hence, any Ahli Yang Berhormat who fails to comply or disobey this ruling will face appropriate censure prescribed by the Standing Orders for disobeying a ruling of the Chair. On question time, Standing Order 19(4) provides that “Unless the Speaker otherwise determines, no more than one hour shall be allocated for questions at each sitting.” For this meeting of the Dewan, the Chair shall continue to allow one hour for question time during each sitting. The Chair finds no cogent reason for extending the length of question time. It is felt that one hour of question time is adequate, having regard to the fact that in the Dewan Rakyat which has 219 Members, that is three times the membership of this august House, the length of question time was only 1½ hours. The Westminster Parliament, Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat, which is a mother of all Commonwealth parliaments, that is the House of Commons, has 646 members of parliament. The question time for oral questions is only one hour. In the Parliament of Australia, the House of Representatives has 150 Members. The question time is between one hour and one hour twenty minutes. To quote a letter from the Clerk of Parliament of Australia dated 20th July, 2006 addressed to this Dewan, “It is technically within the discretion of the government to end it at any time.” In the Locke Saba, which is the Lower House of India, with about 500 Members, the Speaker receives questions totaling 800 a day. This was reduced to 400 a day. This information was intimated to me by the Secretary of Locke Saba I personally met during the CPA Conference. So during question time in the Indian Parliament with 400 questions a day, nearly twice the number of questions which this Dewan received during its entire meeting, the question time has been one hour which may be extended to another 30 minutes. Honourable Members, under Standing Order 12(1), government business shall take precedence over private members’ business and under Standing Order 12(2), government business shall be set down in such order as the government thinks fit and communicate to the Secretary. Subject to what I have just stated, as regards the precedence of government business over private members’ business, the order of business to be taken at each meeting shall be determined by the Speaker. This is stated under Standing Order 12(6). The government has communicated with the Secretary that three days, that is Wednesday, Thursday and Friday this week, after question time, be devoted to debate on the Motion of Thanks to Tuan Yang Terutama’s speech and the ministers’ replies will take the whole of the remaining three days next week of this sitting. This means that private members’ business which must not take precedence over government business can be accommodated only at the end of government business on Monday and Tuesday of this week. The only non-government business are the Motions which the Chair has received under Standing Order 23 from several Yang Berhormat and these are set down for deliberation and debate at the end of today, that is Monday, 24th July, 2006 and also end of tomorrow, Tuesday. Any private member’s motion not disposed of will be dealt with in accordance with Standing Order 12(5). Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker … Tuan Speaker: Ya. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: I would like to make a reply. Tuan Speaker: That is my ruling. Your reply can be in the motion. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No, the motion does not concern the issue of the seating arrangement. There is no motion on the order paper of today, even up to today, concerning seating arrangement. Tuan Speaker: Ya, that is my ruling. We shall proceed with the day’s business. RANG UNDANG-UNDANG KERAJAAN - BACAAN KALI YANG PERTAMA SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY (2005) BILL, 2006 Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to introduce the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 and that this be read a first time. Bill read a first time Menteri Kewangan Kedua dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to give notice that the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 be read a second time at the same sitting. FOREST (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, I am representing the Yang Amat Berhormat the Chief Minister. I beg to introduce the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006 and be read a first time. Bill read a first time Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, I beg to give notice that the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006 be read a second time at the same sitting. SARAWAK TIMBER INDUSTRY DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, I beg to introduce the Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation (Amendment) Bill, 2006 and be read a first time. Bill read a first time Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): And I would like to give notice that the Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation (Amendment) Bill, 2006 be read a second time on the 25th July, 2006. WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): I beg to introduce the Water (Amendment) Bill, 2006 and be read a first time. Bill read a first time Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): And I beg to give notice that the Water (Amendment) Bill, 2006 be read a second time on the 25th July, 2006. RANG UNDANG-UNDANG KERAJAAN - BACAAN KALI YANG KEDUA SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY (2005) BILL, 2006 Menteri Kewangan Kedua dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 as contained in the Command Paper No. 1 of 2006 laid on the table on 24th July, 2006 be read a second time. The First Supplementary Estimates of the Ordinary Expenditure, 2005 as contained in the Command Paper No. 1 of 2006 comprising an additional sum of RM24,714,380 is laid before the House in pursuant to Article 32 of the State Constitution. This additional expenditure is to meet the cost of various services incurred by various ministries and departments for which funds were not provided for or insufficiently provided for in the 2005 Estimates. Detail of the additional expenditure is provided in the Command Paper No. 2 of 2006. Tuan Speaker, I beg to move. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: The question is that the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 be read a second time. Question put and agreed to Bill read a second time USUL UNTUK MEMBAWA RESOLUSI ANGGARAN PERBELANJAAN PEMBANGUNAN TAMBAHAN KEDUA 2005 KEPADA JAWATANKUASA PERBEKALAN Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that the following motions be referred to the Committee of Supply. That this Dewan resolves to refer the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure, 2005 as contained in Command Paper No. 3 of 2006 laid on the table on 24th July, 2006. Command Paper No. 3 of 2006 is laid before the House in pursuant to Section 4(2) of the Development Funds Act, 1966. As presented therein, there are 35 subheads for which the additional provisions are required. The total additional allocation required is RM25,047,550. The amount required has been vired from savings among the subheads concerned and advanced from the Contingencies Advance. The additional allocation is to meet the following Heads of Expenditure: Head D64 Government Buildings RM50 Head D66 Roads and bridges RM20 Head D69 Ports RM10 Heads D71 Recreational facilities RM10 Head D72 Social welfare RM20 Head D73 Tourism RM10 Head D78 Water Supply RM170 Head D81 Housing and resettlement RM25,000,060 Head D82 Industries and Investments RM50 Head D83 Land development and growth centers RM10 Head D84 Feasibility studies RM47,100 Head D85 Other development projects RM40 Totalling: RM25,047,550.00 Details on the additional expenditure is provided in Command Paper No. 4 of 2006. Tuan Speaker, I beg to move. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y. B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Tuan Speaker, I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: Honourable Members, the question before the dewan is that the motion (interruption) Y. B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker, point of order, I have given notice under Standing Order 65 (5) to the Secretary which reads; “Every member who wishes to raise any matter or to suggest the reconsideration of any matter by the government shall give to the Secretary notice in writing of that matter and of the head, subheads and an item/items which relate to it”. Tuan Speaker, I have given pursuant to Standing Order 65 (5), a notice that I wish to raise matters relating to Head D81 subhead 05, Housing and Resettlement. Can I have the Honourable Minister explain the subhead 05, sum required RM25 million? I have read the Command Paper No. 4 of 2006 and I do not seem to understand what has been stated inside there, Tuan Speaker. Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y. B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Let me make my ruling, Standing Order 65, govern Supply Bill. The Supply Bill had been approved earlier on. This is not a motion on the Supply Bill. This is a motion on Supplementary Supply which is governed under Standing Order 67. Under Standing Order 67 (4), that it shall be without amendment or debate and under (4), (5), (6), (7), (  , (9), this is what is governing Supplementary Supply and I have not received your notice. I only receive now. Y. B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: By Honourable Member for Kota Sentosa. Y. B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: There are two notices, Tuan Speaker. One given by Kota Sentosa, the other by Bukit Assek. Tuan Speaker: I don’t receive. Y. B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: One is on a white paper, the other one is in the official letterhead of the Dewan Undangan Negeri. The orderly passed it on; I saw it with my own eyes. Tuan Speaker: I don’t have it here. Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y. B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, since you have not received any notice, I would like to draw the attention, I would like to draw the Honourable Member for Bukit Assek, to Standing Order 68 which is also part of the Article 33(4) of the State Constitution; “A bill may be introduced to authorize expenditure for part of the financial year and the motion on the second reading of the bill shall be decided without debate”. Y. B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No qualms about Standing Order 68, Tuan Speaker. Without amendment or debate does not mean that you cannot seek for clarification. Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Tuan Speaker, actually, under Standing Order 67, if Tuan Speaker, will refer to Standing Order 67 (6), it refers, it says that the procedure laid down in Standing Order 65 (5) to (9) and Standing Order 66 (2) to (19) shall with the necessary modification apply to the consideration of Supplementary estimates of ordinary and development expenditure. Therefore, Ahli Yang Berhormat for Bukit Assek says that Standing Order 65(5) is correct and therefore since we have given our notices… (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Your notice or Bukit Assek’s notice. Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Both our notices. Tuan Speaker: Your notice, I just received, its two days. Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, because we just received the bill. We just received all these Command Papers this morning. How do you expect us to submit our notices, the butiran-butiran all these, we just received this morning. Tuan Speaker: Command Papers shall be laid on the table as soon as necessary. That is when the Dewan receives it. Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Then our notices will be submitted as soon as, is it before the resumption of second reading… (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: I rule… (Interruption) Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: That was in the Standing Order before the resumption of the second reading… (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: I rule that the Minister continues. Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, during the first reading of the second act, the second Rang Undang-Undang, I have already submitted it to the Secretary and that was done in accordance with the Standing Order. We can’t just ignore the Standing Order. No, there is an expenditure involving RM1.9 million paid to a consultancy fee, as a consultancy fee, who is the consultant? (Interruption) Y. B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: Tuan Speaker, you have made the ruling. Can you ask the … (Interruption) Y. B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, this is Standing Order … What Standing Order are standing up for? (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: I have made my ruling, the Minister continues. That’s it. Honourable Minister, please proceed. Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y. B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that the following motion be referred to the Committee of Supply. That this Dewan resolves to refer the first supplementary estimates of development expenditure, 2006 as contained in the Command Paper No. 5, 2006 as laid on the table on 24th July, 2006. Command Paper No. 5 of 2006 is laid before the House in pursuant to Section 4(2) of the Development Funds Act 1966. As presented therein, there are 10 subheads for which additional sum of RM100, 949,500 is required to meet the followings: (1) RM64, 126,500 is required for water supplies to match the Federal approval loan for 2006 which will be released to the state on reimbursable basis. (2) RM26,023,000.00 is required as a provision to Housing Development Corporation. Out of this RM20,023,000 is a back to back Federal loan. This amount has been received by the state and as such, the same amount has to be provided in the State Budget this year to enable it to be released to the Housing Development Corporation. Another RM6 million is state loan for Longhouse Loan Scheme. (3) RM10,800,000 is for Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation of which RM10 million is to reimburse the timber development premium collected and RM800,000 is a grant to Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation for providing as well as for the maintenance of office space occupied by government ministries and departments in Wisma Sumber Alam. Details on the additional expenditure is provided in the Command Paper No. 6 of 2006. Tuan Speaker, I beg to move. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Tuan Speaker, I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: The question before Dewan is that the Motion standing in the Order Paper in the Name of the Minister for Finance II and Minister for Urban Development and Tourism be referred to the Committee of Supply. Question put and agreed to Tuan Speaker: The Dewan will now resolve into the Committee of Supply to consider the Supplementary Supply (2005), Bill, 2006, the Motion the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 and the Motion on the First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure, 2006 Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Standing Order 65(5), there is no discretion given to Tuan Speaker whether to allow or disallow a debate. Now, once notice has been given there must be debate on the bill. Don’t hide behind it. Tuan Speaker: 67(6), no debate allowed on amendment. Proceed. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, no there is no discretion. Where is the discretion? Tuan Speaker: We shall move to the Committee of Supply. Question put and agreed to USUL UNTUK MEMBAWA RESOLUSI ANGGARAN PERBELANJAAN PEMBANGUNAN TAMBAHAN PERTAMA 2006 KEPADA JAWATANKUASA PERBEKALAN Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I wish to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006. The Second Supplementary Estimates of Ordinary Expenditure 2005, the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 and First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure, 2006 and agreed to without amendment. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Under Standing Order 67 (5), there is a time when we debate. There is a time of debate when the Supplementary Supply Bill has been read a second time and a motion for the supplementary development estimate has been agreed to. The Dewan shall resolve itself into the Committee of Supply to consider the Supplementary Supply Bill and Supplementary Estimates of development estimates and the resolution relating thereto. Thereafter, (vi) applies, (vi) is a procedure laid down to debate and notice has been given. Tuan Speaker: I am making my ruling under Standing Order 67 (6), no debate or amendment. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Why protecting the government so much? Why would? Why Tuan Speaker? Why are you covering up all these butiran-butiran, RM1.595 million, consultancy fee? Pay to who? (Interruption) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Tuan Pengerusi mempengerusikan Mesyuarat] Tuan Pengerusi: Honourable Members, we are now considering Command Papers No.1 of 2006, No.3 of 2006 and No.5 of 2006 together with the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006. Honourable Members, we will now consider Command paper No. 1 of 2006. The question is that the amount in all Heads as set forth in the Second Supplementary Estimates of Ordinary Expenditure 2005 be approved. Question put and agreed to The Second Supplementary Estimates of Ordinary Expenditure 2005 is approved Tuan Pengerusi: Honourable Members, we will now consider Command paper No. 3 of 2006. The question is that the amount in all Heads as set forth in the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 be approved. Question put and agreed to The Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 be approved Tuan Pengerusi: Honourable Members, we will now consider Command paper No. 5 of 2006. The question is that the amount in all Heads as set forth in the First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2006 be approved. Question put and agreed to The First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2006 be approved Schedule Tuan Pengerusi: The question is that the schedule be ordered to stand part of the Bill. Schedule is ordered to stand part of the bill Clauses 1 and 2 Tuan Pengerusi: The question is that Clauses 1 and 2 be order to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 1 and 2 are ordered to stand part of the bill Tuan Pengerusi: The Dewan resumes. HOUSE RESUMED [Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan Mesyuarat] Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I wish to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006, the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 and the First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2006 and agreed to without amendment. RANG UNDANG-UNDANG KERAJAAN " BACAAN KALI YANG KETIGA SUPPLEMENTARARY SUPPLY (2005) BILL, 2006 Menteri Kewangan Kedua dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 be now a read third time and do pass. Tuan Speaker: The question before the Dewan is that the Supplementary Supply (2005) Bill, 2006 be read a third time and do pass. Question put and agreed to Bill read a third time and passed USUL UNTUK MELULUS ANGGARAN PERBELANJAAN PEMBANGUNAN TAMBAHAN KEDUA 2005 Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that this Dewan resolves to approve the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 as contained in Command Paper No.3 of 2006 as laid on the Table on 24 July 2006. Tuan Speaker: Can I have another Minister to second. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: The question before the Dewan is that the Dewan resolves to approve the Second Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2005 as contained in Command Paper No.3 of 2006 as laid on the Table on 24th July, 2006 be approved. Question put and motion agreed to USUL UNTUK MELULUS ANGGARAN PERBELANJAAN PEMBANGUNAN TAMBAHAN PERTAMA 2006 Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that this Dewan resolves to approve the First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2006 as contained in Command Paper No.5 of 2006 as laid on the Table on 24 July 2006. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: The question before the Dewan is that the Dewan resolves to approve the First Supplementary Estimates of Development Expenditure 2006 as contained in Command Paper No.5 of 2006 as laid on the Table on 24th July, 2006 be approved. Question put and motion agreed to RANG UNDANG-UNDANG KERAJAAN " BACAAN KALI KEDUA FOREST (AMENDMENT) BILL 2006 Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, saya mohon untuk mengusulkan Rang Undang-Undang untuk meminda Ordinan Hutan dibaca buat kali yang kedua. Tuan Speaker, Ordinan Hutan ialah satu undang-undang, principle and I believe yang mengawal selia penebangan dan pengambilan sumber atau hasil hutan daripada tanah kerajaan, reserve hutan, hutan terkawal serta hutan yang terletak di atas tanah atau hakmilik termasuk tanah yang dipindahmilik untuk tujuan ladang kelapa sawit dan hutan yang ditanam. Ordinan tersebut juga mengawal selia penggunaan produk serta sumber kayu yang diambil daripada hutan kita. Dalam erti kata lain, objektif utama Ordinan tersebut ialah untuk mengawal selia industri perkayuan utama di negeri ini. Tuan Speaker, under Section 66 of the Ordinance, all sawmill had to be licensed by the Director of Forest as the timber taken or removed from the forest unless exported are sent to sawmill to be sawn or cut. Sawmill are considered the first recipients of timber taken from the forest. Tuan Speaker, the existing definition of sawmills in the Forest Ordinance covers also plants where timber is used for the manufacture or production of marketable products including furniture or other articles. It is felt that the role of the Director of Forest ought to be confined to regulating and licensing upstream timber industries, such as logging, in the sawing or cutting or conversion of logs into sawn timber. Any plant or facility used for the processing of timber or manufacture of timber products ought to be regulated by Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation (STIDC) in accordance with STIDC’s statutory mandate. Tuan Speaker, by reason of the existing definition in the Ordinance for the term sawmill which is extended to cover even processing and manufacturing facilities which also need to be registered with STIDC. There is an obvious overlapping of functions between the Director of Forest and STIDC. A clear autonomy of function between the two regulatory authorities, one for upstream timber activities and the other for downstream activities is needed to avoid duplicity of functions, confusion as well as to facilitate enforcement of the relevant laws and regulations. Tuan Speaker, thus it is proposed to amend the Forest Ordinance to provide for a new definition of sawmill to cover only plant or facility, where logs are cut or converted into sawn timber. If the facility of premise is undertaking the processing or manufacturing of sawn timber or other timber products, it would be considered as a timber industry which must be registered with STIDC and regulated or controlled by STIDC. Tuan Speaker, the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006, is now before this august House is to amend that Ordinance to meet the objective, which I have just outlined. The explanatory statement of the said Bill set out the effect and the meaning to the various clauses. Tuan Speaker, apart from providing a new definition of sawmill, the Bill seek to amend Section 59 of the Ordinance which as it presently stand only requires a license to be obtained by the proprietor of alienated land if he were to fell timber trees on his land for sale or bartered. Under the proposed amendment if the proprietor of such land wants to cut or fell for his own commercial use, for instance making furniture, boat or other timber products, he ought to have a license from the Director and pays royalty to the government for the timber he gets. The proposed amendment to Section 66, which provides a better regulatory framework for sawmill including the requirement that such sawmill be built as such approved by the Director in consultation with the State Planning Authority. Such a requirement is needed to prevent sawmill being built in places where they could purchase logs from illegal or questionable sources and thus could help to curb illegal logging activities. License holders must keep proper numbers of timber purchased for their sawmill operation including the sources thereof and provide records of timber output. Such records will have to be produced for inspection whenever required by the Director or a person duly authorized by him to demand such inspection. Tuan Speaker, pindaan yang dicadangkan akan memberikan sebuah rangka kawalselia dan sistem kilang papan yang lebih baik serta menghapuskan fungsi-fungsi bertindih di antara Pengarah Hutan dan PUSAKA. Jika ianya dilaksana dan dikuatkuasa dengan betul ianya boleh membantu untuk mengekang aktiviti pembalakkan haram. Tuan Speaker, saya mohon agar semua Ahli Yang Berhormat dapat memberi sokongan padu terhadap rang undang-undang ini. Saya memohon untuk mengusulkannya. Tuan Speaker: Any Ministers to second? Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: Ahli-ahli Yang Berhormat, before I call any Honourable Members to speak, I would like to draw your attention to Standing Order 32(1) and 34(1). This is an Amendment Bill, so please, confine your comments on the matters, just touch content or affected by amendments without opening all matters relating to the Principle Ordinance. So this is not a debate on the Principle Ordinance. It is an amendment. So confine your comments to the amendment. Any member wants to speak? Honourable Member for Bukit Assek. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Thank you, Tuan Speaker. I rise to take part in the debate pertaining to the Forests (Amendment) Bill, 2006 which I shall refer to as “the Bill” that was tabled by the Honourable Minister. The Bill seeks to amend the Forests Ordinance which I shall refer to as “the Ordinance” in certain respects. I shall take these amendments in turn: (1) Amendment of Section 2 of Ordinance Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to substitute the definition of “sawmill” with a new definition. It is of some concern. The new definition of “sawmill” will result in the exclusion of veneer and plywood mills. It also will exclude chemical treatment plants and kiln drying plants. In a plywood mill, timber logs are peeled into veneers and veneers are “bonded” and manufactured into timber products, i.e. plywood. In a chemical treatment plant, some diameter logs, small diameter logs are not cut, sawn or converted but are chemically impregnated with copper-based chemical. The kiln drying plants is not part of the sawmill. This seems to be confirmed by the amendment, Tuan Speaker, to Section 66 of the Ordinance. May the Honourable Minister assure this august House that veneer and plywood mills, chemical treatment plants and kiln drying plants, which are within the old definition of the word “sawmill”, are now no more a sawmill or part thereof. If the answer is in the positive, then what is the new policy reason for this amendment? (2) Amendment of Section 59 of Ordinance Clause 4 of the Bill seeks to amend Section 59 of the Ordinance by substituting the word “owner” in line 3 of the Proviso with the words “registered proprietor”. Now there are maybe wisdom in the amendment but if you compare with another amendment with another section you may not be able to see why. I cannot see the wisdom of this amendment particularly when a similar word “owner” appears in Section 60 of the Ordinance. No attempt is made to amend it. Is it intentional? May the Honourable Minister enlighten this august House. Also, there is a dire need to clarify whether the forest produce may be sawn or converted as building materials for the construction of workers’ living quarters. I was told that this has been a problem in the past years, where the land is alienated for oil palm plantation. I was also told that it is a problem in the recent years in the Licence for Planted Forests (LPF), where the licensee wants to use the logs extracted for the site clearing and converting them into sawn timber for the construction of workers’ quarters, germination beds, nurseries etc. (3) Amendment of Section 66 of Ordinance Tuan Speaker, by Clause 5(c) of the Bill, a new subsection is to be introduced. The licence issued under the new sub-section contains more conditions than the four listed under the old subsection. Again, Tuan Speaker, I will take the new subsections in turn: (1) New Sub-section 3(a): The new subsection 3(a) imposes the condition that the sawmill shall be built on a site approved by the Director in consultation with the State Planning Authority and in accordance with the plans approved by that authority. The law may as well say explicitly that the site has to be industrial land. I am concerned with this amendment. How often does the State Planning Authority meet over matters like this? I have received complaints that the meetings of the State Planning Authority are scarce and far in between. I do not know how true that is. If the consultation could not be expeditiously held or on a regular and transparent basis, investors may shun away thereby hampering the timber industry. Tuan Speaker, I am given to understand that previously sawmills could be set up on agricultural land or forest concession and such sawmill benefits small industrialists. But nowadays, sawmills can only be set up on industrial land. Converting agricultural land to industrial land is time consuming and expensive premium has to be paid. It requires AVTC to be approved by the State Planning Authority. Besides, industrial lands are concentrated in urban areas and are scarce in rural areas where most of the sawmills are to be found. I am given to understand these: there are more than 700 sawmills (timber yards, furniture mills and veneer mills) built on site not approved by the Director of Forests. Prior to 1992, these mills did not come under the jurisdiction of the Forests Department. In 1993, the law was amended and these mills were caught by the definition of “sawmill”. These mills were duly registered by the Forests Department in 1994 and till today, almost all of them are not licensed by the Director of Forests. The majority are not registered with STIDC because they do not have ICC approvals. The approvals by the Industrial Coordination Committee. The majority of these mills are not sited in the Timber Processing Zone or Industrial Park. The proposed amendment does not qualify by saying that it will not have retrospective effect. If it has, then the small operators above that I have mentioned will have to close shop, leading to much losses and suffering by the employees. The proposed amendment is therefore not fair as it benefits only the big companies and may kill off the small ones. (2) New Sub-section 3(b): The proposed new sub-section 3(b) imposes a condition in the licence of a maximum output of sawn timber from the sawmill. The old subsection is exactly the reverse; it says there must be a minimum output of timber. Is there anything wrong with our Sustainable Forest Management Policy that we were once so proud of? Is it because the policy has gone awry, therefore we must impose a maximum output? Though timber industry is now a twilight industry, in many places in Sarawak, including the central region, a lot of people still depend on employment in timber based industries for their living. If we impose a condition for maximum output, isn’t this putting an unnecessary damper and a strangling squeeze in this industry? Tuan Speaker, in the event that this condition is imposed because there is no longer the expected supply of timber, then explanation must be given to all Sarawakians why we are not able to sustain the timber extraction or production industry. Tuan Speaker, to impose a maximum output condition is in my view, retrogressive and unfair. (3) New Sub-Section 3(f): Condition (f) in the new Sub-section 3 provides a condition that was not in the old section. The new subsection 3(f) states, effectively, that a licence shall contain “such other terms and conditions that the Director may impose”. I believe that such a general and unspecific condition is not permissible, especially on matters relating to forest produce. It is an area where huge sums of money are involved. A lot of people are interested in obtaining timber licence. The wide powers can easily be abused. I am concerned that the wide powers will be fertile ground for breeding corruption. I have support in my concern from none other than the former Prime Minister, Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad who warned on 26th May 2005 that corruption was becoming a culture in Malaysia. He also said that we are slowly breaking through the ceiling on corruption. Tuan Speaker, the general and unspecific condition is also not acceptable to the licensees. It is completely subject to the whim and fancy of the Director. Certain conditions may be acceptable today that will attract the operators to invest. In time to come, the imposition of onerous conditions may force the operators to close shop, thereby resulting in millions of losses in investment and coping massive unemployment. A good law defines with specificity the conditions and not leave an absolute discretion to the Director. (4) New Sub-section 4(a): By clause 5(d) of the Bill, a new subsection 4(a) provides that any licence may be suspended for such period as the Director deems fit, or with the approval of the Minister, cancelled, if there has been a breach of any of the conditions of the licence. If the licensee operates by producing more than the maximum output of sawn timber, it is caught within this provision. A sawmill operator who achieves efficiency should not be penalised to suffer suspension of licence or worst still, cancellation. This cannot be right. This sort of indignity must be thrown at those licensees or operators who are inefficient. Sale of timber products draws in revenue. It allows circulation of money, which circulation produces the multiplier effect. Efficiency in an operation can only arise from quality management. No one in its right mind and no law should penalise direct operators who have managed their business well. Do we penalise a shipbuilder who has attained ISO qualifications by virtue of good management and efficiency in operation? This subsection is not right. What is the purpose? What is the wisdom behind all these, one must ask. The proposed amendment is also not compatible to Section 93 which provides that only the court can cancel or suspend a licence or permit. Needless to say, the court will hear out the aggrieved party. Even that, on suspension or cancellation under Section 93, the Director must give 2 months’ notice but that is not the requirement under the new sub-section. The power given to the Director under the amended Section 66(4) is too wide and draconian and will be subjected to abuse. No power should be given to an individual, including a Director, to impose a summary suspension or cancellation at his absolute discretion. This is not compatible with the rules of natural justice and the right to be heard, which we everybody knows, is called God’s law. (5) New Sub-section 4(b): Clause 5(d) of the Bill seeks to amend the Ordinance by substituting a new subsection (4)(b). Tuan Speaker, by virtue thereof, it is provided that a licence may be suspended for such period as the Director deems fit, or with the approval of the Minister, cancelled, if the holder of the licence or any of the person having charge of the management of the sawmill has been convicted or charged of a forest offence. The magical phrase is “charged or convicted of a forest offence”. I urge the Minister to note once again that the amendment uses the disjunctive word “or” in between “charged” and “convicted”. There are disjunctive words. It means that the Director does not have to wait for the person to be convicted in the Court of law. So long as he is charged, his licence is susceptible to be suspended or at worse, cancelled. This policy behind the amendment flies against the very fundament of the law of justice that a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Yet, with the proposed amendment, the moment he is charged, no waiting for his conviction is required. His licence may be suspended or at worse, cancelled. The door is wide open for abuse and corruption. The amendment is not right. What if after the trial, the licensee or person in charge of management is found innocent and not guilty. No amount of damages can restore the stigma of prosecution and his financial losses. We must bear in mind that in this country of ours, there is only… (Interruption). Y.B Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Clarification. Y.B Encik Wong Ho Leng: Go ahead. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I am quite fascinated with the argument presented by our opposition leader that the Director has the power to even the court rules, to make a decision to penalise the licensee. Is this in your opinion, Yang Berhormat, are these laws passed with mere ignorant of the law of natural justice or that it was passed to give the Director an unchecked power to deal with any matters relating to the forestry or relating to the license that is one, and what goes around comes around. What goes around comes around. Like what Tun Mahathir our ex-Prime Minister is complaining now. He is now complaining about the lack of freedom of speech when during his twenty years tenure, he is the one who suppress the freedom of speech? Tuan Speaker: Are you raising point of information towards the Minister of, are you … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, I am raising the clarification. Do you agree, do you agree with what I’ve said? Tuan Speaker: You asked clarification, do not make a speech okay? I’ll give you your turn to speak. There’s no need for you to make a speech. You want to make clarification, you make clarification. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: I think the Ahli Yang Berhormat for Kota Sentosa is seeking a clarification and I must put on record my appreciation for this clarification and my answer is plain and simple. In the event the law will be passed first ..(Interruption) Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entrie anak Muran): Tuan Speaker. What clarification? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: With the manners, manners. I am holding the floor Tuan Speaker. Tuan Speaker: You are not giving way? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: I am not giving way. I am standing. Tuan Speaker: All right. So that’s your attitude. If you are on the floor you don’t give way? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No, no no. That’s not my attitude. At least the procedure is, Ahli Yang Berhormat will stand up, get recognized by Tuan Speaker. Tuan Speaker will direct the attention to the person who is holding the floor. Are you giving way or not? Don’t barking. Tuan Speaker: Okay. Are you giving way? Are you giving way? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Yes. Tuan Speaker: You are giving way. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Who is being recognized now? Tuan Speaker: He is asking for point of information. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Who is he? Ahli for what? Tuan Speaker: The Member for Marudi. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Thank you. I am giving way. Tuan Speaker: You are giving way. Okay. Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entrie anak Muran): Yes Tuan Speaker. What clarification, what relevant has it got with the ordinance when he is quoting about Tun Dr Mahathir about freedom of speech? Its nothing. It does not touch in the bill. Thank you Tuan Speaker. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker, I take it that the clarification was just giving an example of freedom of speech. Anyway.. Tuan Speaker: We are on Forestry Bill not freedom of speech. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker, the Forestry Bill provide in the new amendment, a new subsection whereby license may be susceptible to be suspended or cancelled when a person is facing a charge but not convicted yet. The freedom of speech comes in at a stage where he can go to the court and said “Look! I am innocent” Is that not freedom of speech. At least we must recognize God’s law, the law of natural justice. That’s what I am talking about. Thank you, Tuan Speaker, I can see you nodding your head. Tuan Speaker: You are more on burden of proof. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Burden of proof, Tuan Speaker, will coming in the court. The person who is in charge of this is facing a charge in court but before he is convicted, before he is asking the prosecutor to prove that he is guilty, he is already sentenced to death. His license may be revoked or at worse cancelled. Tuan Speaker: Where did it say it is sentenced to death? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Cancellation. Revocation of licence. Tuan Speaker: Yes, but not sentenced to death. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Not so serious may be lah. (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Not sentence to deathlah. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: With the licence. Tuan Speaker: Don’t exaggerated lah Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: With the licence. Tuan Speaker: Yes, yes. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Anyway now. In answer to Ahli Yang Berhormat bagi Kota Sentosa. In the event the law be passed because of the ignorance of the law of natural justice, it is high time that we wake up to that law. God’s law. God is watching us. We have our Doa everyday, every morning. Look at that. Now, where am I now? Tuan Speaker: Don’t get lost in your sawmill Yang Berhormat. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Only because that a bit too many of them. Now, I was asking your question. But if after the trial the licensee or person in charge of the management is found not guilty. No amount of damages can restore the stigma of prosecution and its financial losses. I was also saying we must bear in mind that in this beautiful country of ours, there is only penalty meted out in the court in the event of being found guilty. The court does not order compensation to the suspect for wrongful prosecution. Tuan Speaker, even in the light of conviction upon being charged, the period of suspension or cancellation must depend on the gravity of the offence and also subject to the principle of proportionality. We just cannot cancel or suspend a sawmill license when an extra cross cut saw is installed in the sawmill without the approval of the Director or the accused-licensee pleads guilty to rule 22 (5) ie removing royalty assessed logs without a removal pass. Tuan Speaker, if we are serious in this amendment, at least we must attempt to be fair. Wait till the person is convicted, the proper phrase should be “charged and convicted” and not “charged or convicted” The law must have the attributes of being clear, specific, just and fair. The law must not penalize anybody who has proven his industry and ability in management and employing more workers to churn up more money for the revenue. The present amendment bill suffers these flaws, and all my conscience, my colleagues and I cannot support the amendment. Thank you. Tuan Speaker: Any other Member wishes to speak? Honourable Member for Bengoh. Y.B. Dr. Jerip anak Susil: Thank you, Tuan Speaker, for allowing me to participate in this debate on the Forest (Amendment) Bill 2006 and Ordinance. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Honourable Minister for Planning and Resource Management for presenting this bill in this august House. This amendment bill is, I found comprehensive, covering specific definitions, detail guidelines, issuance of licenses and guidelines on the suspension of licenses as well as the penalties involved as well. The amendment of Section 66 of the principle ordinances by adding new Subsection 3 and Subsection 4 is indeed very appropriate. I would like to highlight the case in point that is a new Subsection 3 (a) which stated that “a License issued under this section shall contain the following conditions: a) a sawmill shall be built on a site approved by the Director in consultation with the State Planning Authority and in accordance with the plan approved by that authority under Part 10 of the land code. This new regulation augurs well to ensure that environmental and esthetic landscapes of our city and residential areas did not encroached by these sawmills. There are occasions that the sawmill operators discharge their sawdusts in unsitely manner. Within our city and sometimes them even resort to burning them causing environmental pollution with smoke. Thus, these regulations ensure that sawmills should not be sited indiscriminately anywhere within residential areas or within the vicinity of the city or town but be sited in appropriate areas. While, I fully agree that there must be a consultation with the State Planning Authority, I would like to express my concern that in such process, there can be undue delay. I propose that the process of consultation be expedited and that the approval be given as soon as it is fitting to avoid frustration of the waiting by the applicants. Tuan Speaker, the new Subsection 4 of Section 66 is another appropriate amendment. This is with regard to the suspension of license. Any license issued under this subsection (i) may be suspended for such period as the Director deems fit, I repeat, as the Director deems fit or with approval of the Minister cancel if. May I draw attention to subsection C(i): if holder of the license is found to have employed in his sawmill any person who is non-resident employee unless the person has the requisite pass, permit or authorization under the Immigration or the Labor Ordinances to work in the sawmill or they have permitted such a person to remain or stay in the sawmill or in any premises or property whatsoever belonging to or under his control”. This regulation is well in tandem with our security measures of our state. In view of the escalating crime incidences and significant number of these cases, a number of these cases are due to these illegal immigrants. However, this subsection for suspension of licenses does not take into account the offences of the operators of these sawmills when there is environmental impact due to poor handling of their sawmills waste. Some resolve to burn the sawdust causing air pollution others may discharge them into the nearby streams. I propose that thus regulation to suspend or terminate the license give cognition to these facts. For these, regular inspection of these sawmills should be carried out that the surrounding environment impact be un-adversed. Tuan Speaker, as a medical practitioner I see significant number of sawmill accidents, with workers having cuts, wounds and even amputated fingertips, wood splinters in their eyes and cut wounds in their heads due to falling planks. What it indicates is that the safety and health policies of these sawmill are inadequate and not in compliance with the Occupational Safety and Health Act 1994 or OSHA 94. Some of these sawmills may not even be paying SOCSO for their employees. Let me say that the sawmill is an extremely hazardous place to work in. There is physical hazard or dust and smoke, blades or saw benches and unagronomic working environment. Thus, it is pertinent that sawmill waste to be handled well in compliance to the guidelines by NREB and machines be installed in accordance to the Factories Machinery Act of 1967. In such situation, I propose that issuance of license and its suspension should include environmental surveillance and the occupational safety and health management system to be emplaced and compliance with OSHA 94. In such then, we will ensure minimal environmental adverse impact and occupational injuries. With this note, Tuan Speaker, I stand to give support for this Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006. Thank you. Tuan Speaker: Any other Honourable Member who wishes to speak? I repeat, any other Honourable Member who wishes to speak before I call the Minister to wind up. Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I would like to discuss this amendment. To me there seems to be some confusion from the Member for Bukit Assek on what exactly is the subject matter of this amendment. I will deal with that at the later stage. If you get the total picture, the purpose of this amendment is because the government is concerned with perhaps inefficient monitoring of the timber industry so that the better system would be to divide jurisdiction which has been overlapping to make a clear distinction between the jurisdiction of the Director of Forest and STIDC. When we talk about the timber industry, we talk about the process from felling the timber to the finished products, from kayu di dalam hutan misalnya jadi kerusi ataupun meja. Selama-lama ini sebelum STIDC ditubuhkan, memanglah tugas, tanggungjawab Jabatan Hutan seluruhnya dari punca sampai ke hujung. Tapi dengan adanya penubuhan STIDC, yang khususnya menjagakan the business, the industry itself and it is not a government department strictly so speaking. Patutlah sebahagian daripada industri itu di mana ada commercial consideration, diberilah kepada STIDC. Sebelum ini diberi, there will be some overlapping and there will be some confusions. So the purpose of some of these amendments is to make the line clear between the jurisdiction of the Forest Department and the jurisdiction of STIDC and hopefully if this is done, then perhaps there would be a better and I am quite sure there would be a better management of the timber industry. That is the purpose of part of this Amendment. The second part is our concern with timber theft which is quite prevalent as we all know in this country and government, of course, is very concerned about the theft of timber not only because in terms of loss of revenue but also in terms of the destruction of our forest. So the laws regarding the taking of timber, the transportation of timber, the possession of timber must be made more strict so that we can lessen theft. It is a well-known fact that some sawmills buy illegal timber. It is seen in the coffee shop and so on, some sawmills, they encourage people to curi kayu dalam hutan and they will buy. You know, presently there is some concern about people stealing besi (iron) some manholes are gone so on and so forth. People curi besi, but if there is no buyer, perhaps this theft will be lessen. Ada orang beli, itulah sebab ada orang curi. Jadi begitu juga kayu, kadang-kadang ada sawmill ini dia tidak cukup bahan mentah, dia carilah orang curi hutan itu. Kadang-kadang dia ada hutan sendiri tapi dia curi luar daripada kawasan. Ini berlaku, semua kita tahu ini. So the government is very concerned about this sort of thing, therefore, they will make the laws more strict. That is what it is all about. Not about human rights, natural justice and so on. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker … Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: That is what it is all about. Tuan Speaker: You are making … Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I will give way to you as a matter of courtesy my friend, when your time comes, okay. Tuan Speaker: Are you under Standing Order 33(b)? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 33(a). Tuan Speaker: What point of Order? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Is the Honourable Speaker making a winding up speech? Tuan Speaker: No. Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I am just to clarify so that some people will not be confused. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Clarification should be done by the Minister. Tuan Speaker: Oh, No. He is going on for his own speech. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 32(1). Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I mean, for the Member for Bukit Assek. I am saying all these, so that you will not be confused and be carried off by your own rhetoric. (Applause) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Obviously … the Honourable Speaker is making a winding up speech. Tuan Speaker: You are standing under what Order? Under what Order are you speaking? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 33(b). Tuan Speaker: Standing Order 33(b)? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Caption … whether the Honourable Member is making, in fact, a winding up speech? Of course, I understand the Honourable Member is very used to winding up speeches and he is unable to … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: He is rebutting. He is rebutting to your points, so it is within his right. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Winding up speech? Tuan Speaker: A winding up speech is a second speech by the Minister. The Minister will wind up. This is a rebuttal to your points. (Applause) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Why is the Honourable Member is helping the Minister? Tuan Speaker: Of course, they are on the same side. On the same side of the House. Just like Bukit Sentosa help you with the point of information (Laughter). Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Standing Order, it is Kota Sentosa, not Bukit Sentosa. Tuan Speaker: Kota Sentosa, ya! Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: And what about Tuan Speaker, who are you helping? Tuan Speaker: No. (Interruption) Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: Tuan Speaker, I just want to make some clarifications. Menteri Kewangan II dan Menteri Pembangunan Bandar dan Pelancongan (Y.B. Dato Sri Wong Soon Koh): Tuan Speaker, can I draw your attention to Standing Order 37(e), please. Tuan Speaker: Standing Order 37(e). While a member is speaking, all others shall be silent and shall not make unseemly interruption. (Applause) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Why is this going on here? The noise, the noise is not silent is it? Tuan Speaker: So no unseemly interruption. Okay, sit down. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No unseemly interruption! Do not do like thatlah! Don’t do that. (Laughter) Tuan Speaker: That is an applause. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Is it? Or is it, kacau-kacau? Tuan Speaker: It is an applause to his point. Not interrupting him. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 37(d). Tuan Speaker: Standing Order 37(d)? No Member shall smoke in the Chamber. (Laughter) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No. 37(e). Tuan Speaker: No one is smoking. (Laughter) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: No. No. I correct that. It is Section 37(e) I am talking about. (Laughter) Tuan Speaker: No one is smoking. (Laughter) Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: If I might continue. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Please, please. Tuan Speaker: He is not giving way. Please, sit down. Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: If I might continue with or without the permission of Bukit Assek, it appears that we have a lot of supporters and you must take this your own medicine. If I might continue. Now, these are the reasons why the government put up this Amendment because of their concern for this matter that is going on. Now, on the question, since he raised it about charge and convicted charge or convicted. I agree that one all can be disjunctive or conjunctive but there is the question of what we call a continuing offence. If the Director of Forest or his officer sees that an offence is being committed, to prevent the continuation of that offence, surely he must be given the power to stop the continuation of that offence and does not has to wait until the person is convicted. Otherwise, you are condoning the Commission of an offence which will continue. Now, I am sure he knows the concept of a continuing offence. I am surprised he did not mention it … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 33(b), Tuan Speaker. Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I do not wish to give way now. Tuan Speaker: He is not giving way. He is not giving way. (Laughter) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: As a lawyer before you should have regards to … Tuan Speaker: I am still a lawyer, I am not a lawyer before. I am still a lawyer. I might be older than you … (Laughter) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Then tell us where the amendment that talks about the continuing offence is. Y.B. Dato Sri Haji Adenan Haji Satem: I think as you well said, we leave it to the Minister in his winding up because I am not winding up. (Applause and Laughter). Now, what I am saying is these are the concerns of the government, so they want to amend so that the Forest Ordinance can be more effective in the management of the forest industry. I would like to make a suggestion, it is very well of course to pass laws here and there, to amend laws here and there with the hope and expectation that it will be effective but I think the effectiveness of the law depends not only on the penalty imposed but also on its implementation. If you have a good law which appears to be effective, but if it is not implemented in full, then the law looks stupid. So, I would like to suggest to the Forestry Department and of course, STIDC, now that the law is in placed and has been made more effective, can you please attend to the effective implementation of those laws. I will give an example from my constituency. You have the Gunung Gading National Park, which is in Lundu. I have been given the honour or being briefed by them on the situation of Gunung Gading National Park. The officers there are concerned with the theft of timber from the boundaries of the National Park and they tell me that they have insufficient manpower. This is just one example and also Gunung Pueh, also in my constituency. They are also very concerned about the theft of timber from some of these areas. I am not saying that the Forest Department or STIDC or authorities concerned, are not patrolling the area, I am not saying that but perhaps, there ought to be more manpower and more effective monitoring of the areas concerned. Tuan Speaker, with all the reasons that I have given, I am very happy to support this amendment. Tuan Speaker: Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat, we have a short break. Sitting resume at 4:45 p.m. (Mesyuarat ditangguhkan pada jam 4:13 petang) (Mesyuarat dimulakan pada jam 4:52 petang) [Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan Mesyuarat] Tuan Speaker: I shall now call upon the Honourable Minister to do the winding up. Honourable Minister, you may now deliver your winding up speech. Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, saya terlebih dahulu ingin mengucapkan terima kasih kepada semua Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat yang telahpun turut serta dalam perbahasan Rang Undang-Undang dan Pindaan 2006. Seperti yang saya nyatakan dalam bacaan yang kedua, tujuan Rang Undang-Undang ini ialah untuk mempastikan bahawa industri perhutanan kita dapat diurus dengan baik dan pelaksanaan penguatkuasaan akan dapat dijalankan dengan lebih berkesan. Kita juga di dalam Rang Undang-Undang ini telah pun menghalusi definisi kilang papan itu. Di mana aktiviti-aktiviti huluan, upstream activities haruslah dikendalikan oleh Jabatan Hutan. Kebanyakan kilang papan ini adalah terletak di kawasan pembalakan masing-masing. Kenapa ianya diletakkan di bawah bidang kuasa Jabatan Hutan? Kerana dari segi penguatkuasaannya, ianya lebih mudah disebabkan Jabatan Hutan mempunyai kakitangan yang ramai dan aktiviti hiliran, downstream activities akan dikendalikan di bawah STIDC. Tuan Speaker, itulah matlamat kita menggubal Rang Undang-Undang ini iaitu untuk menyelaras aktiviti-aktiviti kedua-dua Jabatan Hutan dan STIDC untuk mengurus sumber hutan dengan lebih efektif dan optimum. Fungsi dan tanggungjawab yang jelas di antara Pengarah Hutan dan STIDC akan membolehkan tujuan penguatkuasaan yang lebih efektif dan optimum dapat ditentukan. Tuan Speaker, perolehan daripada industri kayu bergergaji, sawn timber telahpun meningkat. Di mana pada tahun 2006, ianya telah menyumbang kepada jumlah yang agak besar iaitu sebanyak RM7.2 billion berbanding RM5.5 billion pada tahun 2001. Tuan Speaker, in the process of improving the regulatory structure, the Government wishes to eradicate malpractices in the timber industry particularly illegal logging, obtaining logs from illegal sources for sawmills and the hiring of illegal workers by saw millers. Therefore, conditions such as imposing maximum output of sawn timber from a sawmill is to fix the amount of sawn timber that could be produced by that sawmill having regard to the logs that could be produced from any timber licensed area belonging to him or from any legitimate source, which he disclosed to the Director under the new subsection 66(3)(c). This means that if the output of his sawmill exceeds the amount of timber logs that he could obtained from his own licensed area or other disclosed legitimate sources, then he must have sourced his logs supply illegally and surely action should be taken against him in the absence of any satisfactory explanation from him as to how he obtained the extra supply of logs. Kita mahu menentukan bahawa maximum output selaras dengan apa yang mampu dikeluar dalam kawasan lesen balak dan jika ianya didapati melebihi dan ini memberi bayaran kepada kita mungkin mereka mendapatkan sumber itu daripada sumber yang tidak illegal. Dari itu, adalah kurang tepat seperti apa yang telah dikatakan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat bagi Bukit Assek bahawa ini menggambarkan bahawa sumber kita sudah jauh menurun. Tuan Speaker, the government believes that illegal logging can be curbed if there is no market for illegal logs. The government has firm reason to believe that sawmills which sourced logs illegally provides a market for those who indulge in illegal logging or stealing logs from national parks, natural reserve and wildlife sanctuary. This bill will help to eradicate such illegal activities. The new Section 66(4) is an enabling clause, conferring powers on the Director of Forests and the Minister concerned to either suspend or cancel a sawmill licence. The exercise of such executive powers conferred by the new law is always subjected to judicial review. The new provisions do not exclude judicial review. Tuan Speaker, the Honourable Member for Kota Sentosa mentioned about the presumption of innocence. The government does not deny that there is such a legal principle. However, the government must ensure that those who break the law do not take advantage of this presumption to continue with their criminal or unlawful activities. We know that it takes years before criminal cases are concluded and a criminal court determines the guilt or innocence of a person. If pending trial or the conclusion of a criminal trial, a saw miller is found to be committing forestry offences or aiding or encouraging others to do so (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: Yes? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Seeking clarification. Tuan Speaker: Clarification. Honourable Minister, Kota Sentosa is seeking clarification. Are you giving way or not? Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): I want to continue. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: The clarification to my speech which I didn’t raise, I didn’t raise anything about presume innocence so I want to seek certain clarification. As a Minister, I think, should be open to Members of this House seeking clarification … (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: Are you giving way? Kota Sentosa … (Interruption), Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, this is, I mean, come on, I am just a … (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: No, you ask first. Is he giving way? Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): I want to continue. Tuan Speaker: Okay, he is not giving way. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: That is not acceptable, come on. Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Surely the government cannot allow him to continue with his unlawful activities and action must be taken to either suspend or cancel his license depending on the gravity of the situation. Without Section 66(4), the government would not have the power to act against a licensee of a sawmill, for instance if he continues to buy logs illegally, harbour illegal immigrants who may be used by him to fell logs illegally from neighbouring timber concessions or national parks. I wish to give an example that in a recent raid of illegal sawmills in the Bintulu Division, more than a dozen of Indonesians were employed by a sawmill and the Indonesians were found to be felling trees illegally from a forest concession belonging to another party, in order to provide sources of raw materials for his illegal sawmill. Without the provisions of the new Section 66(4), it would not be possible for the government to act against that sawmill until his court case is over. In the meantime, he could continue to hire illegal immigrants to do illegal logging. This is the type of situation that Section 66(4) intends to deal with. The government feels that it should have the legal powers to deal with those who take advantage of the law or legal principles like presumption of innocence to continue to flout the law. Tuan Speaker, all sawmills not currently licensed would have to apply for licence and comply with the new laws. Some grace period will be given for them to do this. Owners of sawmill who do not have a licence now or after the law is enforced, that sawmill is clearly illegal and action will be taken against such illegal sawmills. Properly licensed sawmill did not fear the new law. The government will help genuine saw millers to comply with the new conditions prescribed in the amendment. Tuan Speaker, saya berharap dengan penuh yakin agar Rang Undang-Undang Hutan (Pindaan) 2006 ini berupaya untuk mencapai objektif utama iaitu untuk menyediakan fungsi yang lebih jelas antara dua badan kawalselia bagi aktiviti hutan dan bagi aktiviti huluan dan aktiviti hiliran. Hapuskan fungsi-fungsi bertindih… (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: The Minister is making a winding up. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Can I seek clarification … (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: He is making a winding up, replying to the points raised. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: But certain points are not raised, certain points are not clarified, so come on, but a bit more … (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: He is winding up … (Interruption). Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: We want to seek, what is in his mind, how will it facilitate and improve the enforcement. We want to know. Tuan Speaker: Isn’t he making the point? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, No, No, he is just shifting the power from one statutory body to another statutory body, from Forest Department to STIDC, so what are the mechanisms which was not … (Interruption). Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Itu yang kita telahpun jelaskan … (Interruption). Tuan Speaker: No, you sit down, sit down. You could raise this when I give the opportunity to the Members to speak. I gave the opportunity to the Members to speak. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It doesn’t matter. Tuan Speaker: What do you mean that it doesn’t matter. He is making a winding up … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 33 (b) … (Interruption). Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: The reply is ambiguous, the reply is ambiguous. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order 33(a), Tuan Speaker. Standing Order applies equally to the Minister. Winding up or not? Tuan Speaker: No, 33(a) on what? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Standing Order applies equally to the Minister. Tuan Speaker: 33(a) on what? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Point of Order. Tuan Speaker: Point of Order on what? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Tuan Speaker is saying the Minister is making a winding up speech. Tuan Speaker: Yes. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: I agree with that. Tuan Speaker: Yes. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: The whole thing is does the Standing Order applies equally to any Minister in the Cabinet during a winding up speech. Tuan Speaker: He is not giving way. So sit down. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: The point was he is seeking way for clarification. Tuan Speaker: So Sit down, sit down. Sit down, sit down. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Give way, he should give way. Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, kita telah pun menjelaskan, ini yang telah pun kita jelaskan. Jadi kita berharap dengan andainya dan lulusnya Rang Undang-Undang ini, ianya dapat menyediakan kawalan yang baik untuk kilang kayu bergergaji yang telah diluluskan tapak dan operasinya. Saya, Tuan Speaker, memohon rang undang-undang ini diluluskan. Tuan Speaker: The Dewan will now resolve into the Committee of the Whole House to consider the bill which stands committed to the Committee. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE [Tuan Pengerusi mempengerusi Mesyuarat] Tuan Pengerusi: The Dewan will now consider the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006. Clause 1 " 6 Tuan Pengerusi: The question is that Clauses 1 - 6 be ordered to stand part of the bill. Question put and agreed to Clauses 1 - 6 stand part of the bill Enacting Clause and Title Tuan Pengerusi: The Dewan resumes. HOUSE RESUMED [Tuan Speaker mempengerusi Mesyuarat] Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, I wish to report the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006 has been considered by the Committee of the Whole House and agreed to without amendment. RANG UNDANG-UNDANG KERAJAAN " BACAAN KALI YANG KETIGA FOREST (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 Menteri Perancangan dan Pengurusan Sumber II dan Menteri Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Haji Awang Tengah bin Ali Hasan): Tuan Speaker, I beg to move that the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006 be now read a third time and do pass. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Encik Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I beg to second. Tuan Speaker: Ahli-Ahli Yang Berhormat, the question before the Dewan is that the Forest (Amendment) Bill, 2006 be read a third time and do pass. Question put and agreed to Bill read third time and passed USUL DARIPADA AHLI DEWAN BIASA Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Tuan Speaker, I would like to move the motion that the State Government restores the Local Government Election to ensure accountability, transparency and avoidance of corruptions amongst the local governments in Sarawak. Tuan Speaker, the time has come for local governments in Sarawak to be elected rather than to be appointed by the Ruling Party. Local Governments in Malaysia has been blended as one of the most corrupted government department. This is not said by the Opposition. It is claimed by the Timbalan Menteri, Datuk M. Kayveas, the Timbalan Menteri in the Prime Minister’s Department and he was previously the Timbalan Menteri for Local Housing, Government for Housing. Therefore, Tuan Speaker, we also believe so and under any democratic system, there are three tiers of government. One is the Parliament, second is the State Assembly and third is the Local Government. We used to have before the Confrontation time. We used to have local government election until 1965 when during the height of the Indonesian Confrontation, after the declaration of Emergency; our Prime Minister declared that, amendment the law and suspended the local government election. We are 40 years now since the suspension and also I believe more than 35 years after the Confrontation it is time that our State should be the first State to implement local government election, to be the first in the pursuit of democratic, truly democratic system. As such today I hope this Motion not only to attain the first State to have local government because our Constitution, Federal Constitution allows us. Under the State List, local government election is within the power of the State Government. We have the power. This august House has the power to restore local government election. And I have many reasons to support my motion today. One of which is the services provided by the local government leave much to be desired. As we are going around our constituency, the complaints from the residents to us, 90% of the complaints are because of ineffective, inefficient local government carrying out, officers carrying out their jobs. And we have at present we have the ruling parties appointing councillors. But I doubt, I doubt such councilors whether they are doing a good job. If they were doing a good job, the people would not have approached us State Assemblymen or Member of Parliament to lodge these complaints about drains not being cleaned, about rubbish not being collected, about anything, and roads not being paved. All these fall within the jurisdiction of local government. And they are the jobs of councilors. And when I asked them, when I asked these complainants who is the councilors in charge of the area, more than 90 percent of them don't know. They don't know who their councilors are. It seems that the government is wasting the money to appoint these councilors when the people they have grievances they don't know who to direct it except to State Assemblyman or Member of Parliament. I think we are in this august House to determine debate on policy issues and we have the three tier government each must do their job properly. So the inefficiency, the ineffectiveness of councilors is quite serious I would say. And because of that, the people, although they pay assessment rates and mind you, Mr. Speaker, our assessment rates is the highest in the whole of Malaysia. The Annual Rateable Value, we are paying the rate of 29.5%, 28%, 27% of the Annual Rateable Value of our property. Whereas in West Malaysia even in KL the residents there they are paying only 11% of the Annual Rateable Value of their property. The highest I know in West Malaysia, the residents in Ipoh, in Perak, Ipoh, there the rate of which the rateable value is charged is only 16%, 16% of the Annual Rateable Value. But in Kuching here, in Sibu, Bintulu, I believe they are charged, the residents there, property owners, they are charged 26.5% to 29.5% of the Annual Rateable Value. Although they are paying such a high fee but they are not getting the services which justify such high fee. And on this matter, on this motion, the emphasis is on accountability, transparency and the avoidance of corruption. We all know that the local government, they are charged with the duty to collect rubbish, to clean the drain, to maintain street lightings, maintain the road, resurface the road if it is, there are potholes. Now such services, a lot of them have been privatized without proper tender on the excuse that with privatization that it will be more efficient and there will be a better service provided. But I will take as an example, rubbish collection. It was privatized few years ago. There is no improvement in the service of rubbish collection. Previously when it was under the charge of the local government, the councils, we, the rubbish was collected three times a week. And after the privatization the collection is only twice a week. Which means by the same, if it were the same modus operandi, it will have saved 33% of the costs for rubbish collection, reducing from three times a week to twice a week … (Interruption) Y.B. Dr. Haji Wahbi bin Haji Junaidi: Clarification. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: 30%. 33%. Y.B. Dr. Haji Wahbi bin Haji Junaidi: 33B. I was, I am quite irritated by the, by few times mentioning of local government. I want to know about what government, State Government, can the … Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: What is it, can you repeat? Y.B. Dr. Haji Wahbi Haji Junaidi: I was, I am irritated by the word local government. As far as I know we have one single State Government. Can you explain what is the definition of Local Government? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Laughter. Ok. Ok. Ok. I will explain. Local government means like your council, badan, perbadanan, these are local government, these are called local government. Majlis Bandaraya, if Yang Berhormat is not aware, that's how we address this description to address all these Majlis Bandaraya. Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (YB (Dr) Lee Kim Shin): Tuan Speaker, point of clarification. May I ask … Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I'll let the Opposition Leader to answer the question first. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Who do not know what's the local government can give, identify himself. Tuan Speaker: Yes, Member for Senadin. Are you taking the point of information? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yes, yes, ok. Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. (Dr) Lee Kim Shin): Ya, under Standing Order 33(b). Point of Clarification. May I ask the Honourable Member, what is the difference between Local Government and local authority? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It's basically the same. Interchangeable usage … (Laughter) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It is interchangeable usage. If you can't understand, then, I'm sorry. Ya. So now, I was on … Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri anak Muran): So can it be … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Ya. Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri anak Muran): Tuan Speaker, under 33(b) just now … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: No, Yang Berhormat … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri ak Muran: What are the functions of local government? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yang Berhormat, just a minute, just a minute, just a minute … Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri anak Muran): … and local authority? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: If you don’t stand up I will let you ask, you don't have to cite the Order, Standing Order, you … Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri anak Muran): I would like to know what are the functions of local government and local authority in Sarawak. YB Encik Wong Ho Leng: Is that within the ambit of the Motion today? What is the Motion today? Menteri Muda Kemudahan Awam (Y.B. Encik Sylvester Entri anak Muran): Seeking clarification. Seeking clarification. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Read the Order paper. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I think my colleague has answered the question. Tuan Speaker: The Member is asking whether there's a difference between the functions of local authority and local government. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I think such terms are generally interchangeably used. Tuan Speaker: So basically they are the same? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Basically they are referring to the same thing, Majlis Bandaraya. Tuan Speaker: Huh? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Basically they are referring to the same thing, just calling by a different name. So I was on privatization of rubbish collection. After privatization there is no improvement in the service and we get maggots crawling out from our dustbins. And after the privatization instead of the councils, the local government or local authorities then saving the money instead of reducing their costs, on the contrary in Kuching, in Kuching the rates has been increased. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Tuan Speaker, point of order. I don't think there is any connection between privatization in election of local government. It should concentrate on the Motion. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Whether I am out of point, I believe our Speaker would direct and not a Member from this floor to tell me whether I am out of point or not. And for Yang Berhormat's information, we are talking about accountability, transparent and avoidance of corruption. I stated just now my emphasis is on these three elements in the operation of local government and privatization of rubbish collection is part of the government's job. It's the local authority's job, rubbish collection and when it was privatized there is no transparency, there is no accountability now. Because when the rakyat complained why are maggots now crawling out from my dustbin. Why my dustbin, rubbish was collected twice only a week after the privatization. Who is there to answer? They look for Wakil Rakyat. That could be one of the reasons why in Kuching, SUPP suffered such a big loss! (Applause) Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Are we saying, or do you think somebody must be, makan gaji buta. Tuan Speaker: Pronounce properly, Honourable Member. Makan gaji budak is a boy's pay. Makan gaji buta is blind pay, so which one is it? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Makan gaji buta. Thank you, Tuan Speaker. Tuan Speaker: No, I would like to find out … Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: You think I am imitating Datuk Robert Lau. Thank you very much. (Laughter) Tuan Speaker: Let me clarify, makan gaji budak, budak is a boy. Makan gaji buta means you are paid … Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: B U T A, Tuan Speaker. (Laughter) Tuan Speaker: Oh, alright. BUTA. Alright. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Tuan Speaker, can you, I asked to … (inaudible) Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Point of clarification. Tuan Speaker, point of clarification. Tuan Speaker: Yes. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): The councillors are not paid. They are not paid. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: The councilors are not paid, they have perks. They have perks. Allowances. They park their car free. Do you know that? In town, they drive around town parking their car, no charge! When the Dewan, we, we have to pay our parking fees. So these are perks and they have meeting allowance. And they are the persons who is charged with the duty to see to it that the councils, the government servants, civil servants in the councils are doing a good job. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): I just want to ask, do you mean that once the councilors are elected, you are going to pay them salaries and a lot of perks? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: That can be done. If it is, if they are elected, if they are doing their job properly, yes. Yes, allowance can be given. Salary can be given. Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Correct, Tuan Speaker. Allowances and salaries can always be given but today as a Minister in charge of local government, a lot of our local councils particularly those in rural areas are in deficit. So if we were to have all these, I think the rates need to go up. You have said that our rates are one of the highest in the country. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yang Berhormat, the Local Governments are in deficit. Most of the Local Governments or local authorities are in deficit and they rely on government grant to survive. Yes, most of them are in deficit anyway and they rely on government grant to survive. I think, to ensure, to provide a better service to the people, to justify the giving of the grant to pay them salary rather than to make a uniform which costs RM4,000 per suit for the Ahli Yang Berhormat here. Costing RM4,000 per suit. That is a wastage. If a lot of this wastage can be saved, I believe we can pay the councilors and after that election of councilors so that they do the job properly. After all we are here for the betterment of our society… (Interruption). Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: Point of clarification, please. Pandangan. What relation has this got to do with your election? You see, you admit that most of the councils do not have money. Well, even if there is an election of local government, do you think they can have money? Do you think they can provide better services? As it is, they are providing services now. You are referring probably to Kuching or to just some of your fellow party members who have been complaining to you but then in most other cases, there have been good services being provided down here. What relation has it got to do with election of local government here? Tuan Speaker: Honourable Member for Kota Sentosa, the uniform for the Dewan here is not RM4,000, it is RM2,000. It is made in Sin Ah and unless it is Versace suit. It is not Versace, it is local. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: But I will still believe RM2,000 per suit is very costly and that money could have been better spent elsewhere for the people. In reply to your point about what election can bring, that is a basis of democracy accountability. It is because if there were any regular election being conducted, those sitting there in power, they have to come out and face the people regularly and those are the time when the people are judging whether these councilors are doing a good job or not. Now, the situation is that councilors are being appointed by ruling party. So where does their loyalty lie? Where does their loyalty lie? To the person who are appointed, not to the rakyat that are supposed to have elected them. If there was a council election: (1) They will be subjected to being judged regularly; and (2) The people will know them. If you elect these councilors, you will know that I elect this councilor. So if I have problem, I will go to my councillor. I don’t have to go to State Assemblyman or Member of Parliament. That is the allocation of job, accountability and to allow the residents to know who you have elected because during election campaign, you have to go around shaking hands, telling them “Okay, next time if you have got problem, you look for me. This is my card, you can contact me.” And when there are problems, when there is rubbish and there are maggots coming out from their dustbins, they will call you up “Hey come on. Come and collect my rubbish” rather than calling the Minister. I don’t think the Minister will like to be bothered, bogged down with such cause. That is why I said election is important, local government election, to provide a better service to the rakyat. I have one case. A friend of mine, the wife was admitted to hospital because of dengue. That was in Hawaii Park. The drain next to her house was choked. So naturally she called up MBKS to clean the drain. The workers came, cleaned the drain, left the whole chunk of those dead leaves there and when she asked the workers “why don’t you remove it?”, the reply was “Oh, that is the job for another contractor. We did not contract for that. We contracted just to clean the drain. The collection is not my job.” And she was bitten by dengue mosquitoes, admitted to hospital, stayed there for a few days, discharged. Because of the low immunity, she was re-admitted yesterday because of infection. So these are the things that common people are suffering. Of course, I believe if the wakil rakyat calls up the Bandaraya or the Ministers call up the Bandaraya, they will come the next minute to clean the drains but what about the common people? The rakyat, the people that we are representing. They were not given such good service and that is why I said election of local government is the only way to improve and when Malaysia was formed we can have election for three tiers of government. Why can’t us after 40 years? Why can’t we have the same system? We should move forward to a more liberal country, a country that can really call ourselves a democratic system, the first world mentality or is it the Barisan Nasional is so lack of confidence that if there were any local government election, you may not have won it. I think in Kuching that may be the case. And now, coming to another point that I would like to raise is about conflict of interest. When one is in a position be it a Yang Berhormat, a Member of Parliament, Assemblyman or a councilor, can they be allowed to be involved in the projects of the council? The basic principle to avoid conflict of interest. We have a case where a company owned by three councillors, now they are not councilors, was alienated a parcel of land in Tabuan Laru. That land, initially there was a plan to build a market there and now sure enough a market was built on that land but on the empty plot next to the land, there used to be a piece of land, one parcel, one big parcel State land, and it was subdivided in such a way that MBKS was to build the market on the smaller parcel of land from the big area and the remainder was given to or alienated to a company owned by three councilors, ex-councilors now. We have raised this issue during the election time, we get no answer why did the government alienate to them. Now, is that proper? … (Interruption). Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: Clarification. You see, Ahli Yang Berhormat bagi Kota Sentosa, we have got bodies like ACA where you can make your report. If there are areas where you feel that there are elements of corruption or abused of power, well you should know where to go. Complaining them, shouting them in public like what you say just now in your campaigning is not the place. As a lawyer you should know yourself where to go on this matter. We have got ACA. If you feel that there is a problem here, if you feel there is corruption here or abused of power, you go to ACA and report, make your report. (Applause) You even know there are three councilors involved here. In this case, probably you might have known all the facts here. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Everyone has a role to play in our system. Everyone has a role to play. ACA knows about this. I am very sure ACA knows about this. The Anti Corruption Agency knows about this. However, they said there may be some constraint from legal point of view including the corruption element. We are here as Wakil Rakyat to ensure that government operation like alienation of land is done with a fairer, more transparent system. It is not that because this involves corruption so we don’t have, we cannot mention it here. We are here to push for a better system, a more transparent system. That is why I cite this case as an example. There is no transparency in it. There is no open tender called for the alienation of land and the conflict of interest element is there and there is another … (Interruption). Menteri Muda Industri Makanan dan Menteri Muda Kerajaan Tempatan (Y.B. Datuk David Teng Lung Chi): Point of clarification. Conflict of interest always means that a person who receives the benefit is involved in the decision-making but this so called three ex-councilors or the present councilors, assuming that it was correct, the land was not alienated by the council to them but by State Government or Land and Survey Department. So there is no conflict of interest here. (Applause) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Well, that was a choreograph. Okay, let me show you the conflict. I do not know when they applied for the alienation of land but from the reply from the Land and Survey, the plan which they submitted the number is SPS/2-01/ID(HQ24/9 . So I presumed the plan was submitted in 1998 and from what I checked, the three shareholders, they are in that time in 1998 they were councilors and there was a plan for the council to build the market on that parcel of land, on that State land. Now, my question, why MBKS having the plan or intention to build a market on a parcel of state land which is about 17 acres. Why the council did not proceed in the name of the council to apply for the land but instead the councilors form a company to apply for the land.These are information acquire in the office. Taking advantage of information acquire from the office and this surely is against, is conflict of interest. Although they are not the decision-making person but they have acquired knowledge from the office and they exploit that knowledge to their benefit. Even in common law, in common law, under common law there is this principle of tracing, whereby, whereby, if such officer acquires certain knowledge from, advantage from his position to his own benefit the entity in this case, the council, can trace their benefit and I urged, I urged the Ministry go for the land. It was alienated in the name of a company. They are the shareholders. A very simple legal exercise, transfer the shares back to the MBKS. I am not asking it transfer to me. I am asking that the land, the company’s share be transferred back to MBKS, have a try. It is worth it, it is worth it, I assure you. I have a development agreement here with me. Tuan Speaker: Member for Kota Sentosa, sorry to interrupt you. Can someone second it first before you proceed? It is not seconded. Y.B. Cik Ting Tze Fui: I rise to second. Tuan Speaker: Honourable Member for Meradong, I suppose. Y.B. Cik Ting Tze Fui: Ya. Tuan Speaker: Proceed. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Thank you. I can assure you it is worth the exercise, it is worth the legal action. That parcel of land now after sub-division 15 acres in Tabuan Laru alienated to the councillor’s company, ex-councillor’s company, that parcel of land. According to the agreement … (Interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Tuan Speaker, one clarification, if the Member for Kota Sentosa strongly believes there is an act of public interest in this case regarding those three people he mentioned, why don’t you carry on following when the gentleman Member for Samarahan was saying earlier, why don’t you take up the case to ACA? You seem to be strong … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Honourable Member for Asajaya. Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Ya, Member for Asajaya. Y.B Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yang Berhormat, if one day should you find the service of ACA handy. One piece of advice for you. Once you lost the case with ACA, you can’t speak about it outside. That is under ACA Act. That is why I said we have different role to play. ACA, their role is to catch those corrupted officer … (interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): You earlier mentioned that ACA already know the case. Does it mean that nobody has brought up the case to ACA? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I said ACA knew about the case, ACA knew about the case. Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): You brought up the case officially to ACA? Y.B. Encik Chong Ching Jen: You don’t need to bring a case officially to ACA for ACA to take action. Just like a police, if you see somebody kill, are you saying that the police have to sit there and wait for somebody to lodge report officially to … (interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): By taking your point. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: That is why I did not lodge. Once you lodge, no, no, no, no that is different. That is a legal part. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Ahli Yang Berhormat, if I may, on the other hand, DBKS I thought, MBKS, I thought can be in the purview of this dewan as well before still and I thought Ahli Yang Berhormat, you were the Chairman of PAC, bukan? Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Yes, I was. Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Yes. So, anything had been done? Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): (Inaudible)… Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Our role here as Wakil Rakyat is to push for a more transparent system and in a phase of such malpractice, our additional role is to let the people know. That is to create awareness among the people of the malpractice in the Barisan Nasional Government. So I have told ACA, I don’t need to lodge a formal report in order for you to initiate an investigation and ACA has my has our election campaign material and which clearly stated how it goes about and all the information I got here are from the public record. So that you … (Interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Are you accusing that ACA is not being effective? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I am saying that. Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): You are saying that in this august House that ACA is useless? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It is not effective. Not effective and useless, they maybe … (Interruption). Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Thank you. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It is not effective and they have not done anything but they have all the materials and they have the power to investigate. Whether to investigate or not to investigate we will push for it and as for our role, I say, we have a different role to play. Our role here is to educate the rakyat about this malpractice so that they are aware of it. So that government in future or the Ministers may not dare to engage in such transaction. That is our role, our role here. Want to seek a clarification? Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: Ahli Yang Berhormat for Kota Sentosa, if you strongly feel that there is an act of corruption there is an act of abused of power down here against these three councilors or against these three companies, for they are not here to defend themselves, you are here and then covered by the bunch of immunity of this august House and if you already report the matters to ACA and you feel that ACA is not effective, I think the other alternative would be for you to go out from this august house and say it out openly, these companies, this particular person has committed in a corrupt practice, corrupt act … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: In this august House? Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: Outside of this august House. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I have said it, I have said it. That is why you have not heard. I have repeated it over and over again… (Interruption) Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: outside … Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Outside, outside. During election time, during ceramah over to thousand of people, my friend. Y.B. Tuan Haji Abdul Karim Rahman Hamzah: We will check on this. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yes, yes, yes. If you bother to attend our ceramah, you will know. Plenty of occasions. I was surprised, I was surprised. Why SUPP does not come out of any, any, any explanation. So I hope explanation can be given and if they want my service as a council to trace the shares, I am willing to offer my service, free of charge. So, I am not exposed how much are the councilors making. You may be interested. According to the development agreement for the fifteen parcels of land, 99 shophouses will be built on it. 99 shophouses. And once it is built, for each shophouse being sold, a dollar… (interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): (Inaudible)… Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: These are acts done by member of the Local Government, don’t run away from that. For each dollar, for each dollar made or received proceed of sale from the shophouse, for each dollar, 27.5% goes to the land owner. Do the calculationlah. 27.5% goes to the company owned by the councillor. 72.5% goes to the developer. Such ratio will continue until it reaches a total sale proceed of 80 million. Thereafter for every dollar received, fifty cent will go to the land owner and fifty cent to the developer. If we make a rough estimates … (interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): Tuan Speaker, … (Inaudible) in the case of corruption. Then I am asking him does he believes ACA … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I think this is a malpractice. It may not, it may not, it may not pass as corruption per say under the corruption … (Interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): If it is not … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It is a malpractice, malpractice, government practice without transparency, understand, without transparency. Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): If you say malpractice, what … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: You are the councillor, you know the fact and you are applying for the alienation of the land from the government instead of the council of which you are holding office… (Interruption) Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): (Inaudible)… Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: You can call. I think we have the power, this House has the power to call the three gentlemen to be here. This House has the power if you want. Ask the … (Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Permodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Tuan Speaker, I also like to … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: SUPP involved. I believed the three councillors are appointed by SUPP. The appointment, by appointment, by appointment. Menteri Muda Teknologi Maklumat dan Menteri Muda Pembangunan Infrastruktur dan Perhubungan (Y.B. Tuan Haji Bolhassan bin Haji Di): … (Inaudible) Tuan Speaker: I think you have exceeded your time. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I will conclude in five minutes. Tuan Speaker: Ya, you have been speaking about forty five minutes. So, can you close the case? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Ya, because of the clarification. I will conclude. I believed a proper system, a system where we practice democracy, we should not allowed such private profiteering be carried out especially involving councilors or ministers or elected representative and the whole exercise of alienation of land there is no, no open tender whatsoever being called and assuming a rough estimate of one million per shophouse after the sale of the 99 shophouse, this land owner company will get thirty million cash. Tuan Speaker: Ya, you have already revolved around this point… (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Ya, no, no … (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: The motion is the State Government restores the Local Government election. So can you move on. You have covered the point. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Alright. Ya, I believed should there be any Local Government election, these three councillors will have to face the rakyat, face the questioning from the rakyat and may be, may be they will do a service to the previous Ahli Yang Berhormat for Batu Lintang or Pending, they may not lose the seat because there are people accountable, accountable. Now there is no accountability. The three of them just enjoy whatever they want. Timbalan ketua Menteri dan Menteri Pemodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Point of clarification Tuan Speaker. If the Member say that no elected representative can do any business? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Well, you can. Elected, elected representative you can, you can do business, you can do business. But the office that you hold you should not be involved in the business of that office. Like councillors for MBKS, they can, they can. They can get projects from DBKU or another council. No problem. I have no qualms with that. But if you are MBKS Councillor you should not get project from MBKS. Ha! That is the point I am driving at. So … (Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Pemodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Point of clarification. Is this project an MBKS project? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: You can say that it is not in the strict sense but I have said, I have said there is plan … (Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Pemodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): … (Inaudible) if this is not an MBKS project, why is MBKS dragged in? … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: There is a plan. No, no I think the Minister can clarify. Yang Berhormat going to clarify on this point… (Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Pemodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): … (Inaudible) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Alright, then let the minister clarify. Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Permodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): I think you are just guessing. Tuan Speaker: The question of the minister is quiet simple. Is this is an MBKS project? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: It relates to MBKS projects. It relates, because MBKS is building a market there. Initially the market and the 99 shophouses fall in one parcel of land. Now the market and the 99 shophouses separate parcels of land. Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Permodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Did MBKS say they are going to build a market there? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: You see, Yang Berhormat, in the plan submitted by this councilor’s company, a plan drawing up the locality of the market and they are councillors. The inference is clear, is as clear as water... (Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Permodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Has MBKS decided to build a market there or it was just a proposal to build a market there? Can you please clarify? Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: They’re councillors and MBKS at that time in 1998 did have some intention to build a market there. It has some intention and...(Interruption) Timbalan Ketua Menteri dan Menteri Permodenan Pertanian dan Menteri Pembangunan Perindustrian (Y.B. Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Dr. George Chan Hong Nam): Are your sure, because in this House you cannot use false information. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I know, I know, I know, I know. I hope, Yang Berhormat in future if I ask for clarification you accord me with the same courtesy that I have accorded you. Not like the other Yang Berhormat refusing to answer question, clarification. I sat down to get clarification whenever, whoever stands up but I hope ministers replying will accord me with the same courtesy in future. So now, that is why I said… (Interruption) Tuan Speaker: Can you close your sentence. Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: Yes, I will close. One last paragraph. To restore public confidence in the system, to have a more effective, efficient local council, local authority or local government we need election, regular election of councilors so that there will be check by the people, supervision by the people regularly and people have the opportunity to judge these councillors. Thank you. Tuan Speaker: Honourable Members, I shall now put the question. The question is that the State Government restores the local government election to ensure accountability, transparency and avoidance of corruption amongst the local governments in Sarawak. Any member wants to, Minister for … (Interruption) Y.B. Encik Chong Chieng Jen: I have a seconder. Tuan Speaker: The seconder wants to speak. It is not working, is it? Y.B. Encik Wong Ho Leng: Ahli Yang Berhormat for Meradong, you can use this mike. Tuan Speaker: Okay, obviously we need the new Dewan. (Laughter) Y.B. Cik Ting Tze Fui: Terima kasih Tuan Speaker. I rise to raise my point in supporting a motion moved by Yang Berhormat bagi Kota Sentosa. Tuan Speaker: Yes. Y.B. Cik Ting Tze Fui: Although there used to be election for members for local governments, no local government election has been held in Malaysia for 40 years. Tuan Speaker, at present there are altogether 25 local authorities in Sarawak. Their functions include waste collection, street lighting, public health, providing amenities, recreational parks, housing and commercial amenities. The local government also plays its roles as local authority, local paying authority like licensing authority, power to impose certain kinds of taxes, undertake building, housing and commercial construction, for example market, hawker stalls, etc, power to perform urban planning and management functions, traffic management and control and power to plan and provide public amenities. Another important avenue to participate in the running of the local authority is through councilors appointed by the government in the past in local councils. Tuan Speaker, according to the Local Government Act 1976, the appointment of councillors is done from amongst the present and majority of whom shall be person ordinary residents in the local authority area who in the opinion of the said authority have wide experience in local government affairs or who have achieved distinction in any profession, commerce or industry or are otherwise capable of representing the interest of the communities in the local authority area. But the appointment of councillors today is based on political affiliation. This does not reflect the wish of the people. All the functions are carried out by local councillors are connected most personally (Applause) to the hearts of the people. The people who run the affairs must therefore understand the people’s needs. The people pay rates and assessment. We have a right to expect good delivery system whether in cleaning drains, cutting grasses, good transportation and perhaps a safe and bright environment. But I dare to say local councils have failed to deliver basic amenities resulting in floods, traffic jams and even dengue epidemic. Worst still local governments are unaccountable and unresponsive. It has been said it is one of the most corrupt entities. When communist countries like China and an Islamic country such as Saudi Arabia, allow direct election of village heads and municipal councils, Malaysia must allow this grassroots democracy in our cities, districts and even village. When local governments are elected, they have to perform and serve or else face the judgment of the people. Tuan Speaker, democracy is a proven formula for progress, prosperity, freedom, good governance and equal opportunity. At the local level democracy allow the people to decide on a solution to the problems they are familiar with. It is not accident that the riches countries in the world are all democracies. Isn’t it ridiculous that Sarawakians can select and decide our Chief Minister at the state level but have no right to elect our municipal councillors? (Applause) I personally think that the time has come to return power to the people. It is the right time for us to look at this motion to be passed by this august House. Being taxpayers, we have the right to decide who represent us and how our taxes are being spent. I urge all Honourable Members to support the motion to restore the local government election in Sarawak immediately. I beg to second. Thank you. Tuan Speaker: Just for the clarification of the House, our system is a parliamentary system, different from the American Presidential System. The Chief Minister is not directly elected by the people like the American President. It is based on constituencies. Just for the information of the House. We shall now call upon the Minister for Local Government. Is the mic also not working there? Menteri Alam Sekitar dan Kesihatan Awam (Y.B. Datuk Michael Manyin anak Jawong): Tuan Speaker, as a Minister in the Sarawak State Government having responsibility for local authorities, I wish to set out the government’s position on this motion which in essence calls for a return of local government elections in Sarawak. But first, let me enlighten this august House, on the following matters which are essential for a meaningful debate on the motion moved by the Honourable Member for Kota Sentosa, namely: (a) The past history of local government elections in Sarawak; (b) The initial suspension and then the eventual abolition of local government elections; (c) The adoption by this Dewan of a nominated system as opposed to elective process for Councillors; (d) The role and functions of Local Authorities within the governmental structure in the federation in general and in Sarawak in particular; and provision of Government funds for local Councils; and (e) The system of financial management and accountability in local authorities; and finally (f) The progress and achiev |